The Great Debate: 600 or 1000

[MA$TER_E]

So?

I've been under the impression that when you're on a 1000 you won't have as much fun in the twisties compared to a 600. After getting to know my 600 and having my ass handed to me by some asshats on 1000's, (cough cough baystr/golfer cough cough) I'm second guessing that logic. They were every bit as fast as I was in the twisties and obviously faster everywhere else...

So as long as you respect the power/torque whats better? a 600 or 1000?

:ride:

[TOM-CAT]

The only thing that really matters on the street is each rider's skill level, and willingness to push the envelope. The flick-ability and corner speed of a 600 won't amount to a great difference on the street, but the raw power of a liter bike can usually be closely matched by a 600 being run high in the RPM band, producing peak power.

:2cents:

[MA$TER_E]

The only thing that really matters on the street is each rider's skill level, and willingness to push the envelope. The flick-ability and corner speed of a 600 won't amount to a great difference on the street, but the raw power of a liter bike can usually be closely matched by a 600 being run high in the RPM band, producing peak power.

:2cents:


Thats exactly what I'm starting to suspect. I don't like seeing the shift light so much. I rev the piss out of that poor thing, I enjoy every moment of it, but still I'd rather not rev it so hard. I ride around town at 8k-10k before I grab another gear which I have to do a LOT...

Good input :thumbup: This is interesting :ride:

[JonXX]

So?

I've been under the impression that when you're on a 1000 you won't have as much fun in the twisties compared to a 600.

What put you under that impression? Comparing a carving knife like a CBR600 to a cross country blaster like my 1100XX or an eyeabuser? No comparison, not even close (my XX is the better part of a foot longer for one thing, and isn't made for a full course of that for another).

But if you compare like for like, a CBR600 and a bike like Baystr or Mosser's CBR1000s (with a guy like Baystr or Mosser on it) the guy on the 600 ain't never gonna see the 1000 after the first couple turns.

One thing that I think will happen is that you'll get lax in your riding technique, because you'll have twice the motor to fall back on to bail you out. I know that for damn sure happened to me when I went from open class MX bikes back to a 125. It was like I forgot how to ride.

[DrDuc]

The better bike is an air-cooled, two-valve per cylinder, 1078cc L-twin motor in a lightweight frame with Ohlins suspenders and ultra-light wheels:rad:

That motor can be massaged to make as much torque as an inline 1000cc four, and plenty of horsepower for on the street.

I've yet to find a bike that I can't run with up to about 130mph, and who wants to go that fast on the street? I mean, I'd never do something like that...:yes:

A lightweight bike with adequate horsepower and great handling and braking in the hands of a talented rider will show the vast majority of people riding 1000s the fast way through the twisties every time.

I think it's far more fun to be on the underdog bike that's the first one to the rest stop, than it is to be the person on the overdog bike. If the overdog bike makes it to the rest stop first, people tend to credit the achievement to the fact that the bike is so powerful/awesome handling, and so on, rather than crediting the rider's talents. On the other hand, the guy on the underdog bike that gets to the rest stop first gets far more recognition for his/her skills because people know that it didn't happen because the bike had the most power, etc.

Rather than spending more money on a liter bike, invest in you. Get some time on a track with a great coach. Your 600 is plenty fast. Like Jon said, going to bikes with gobs of power can cause you to get sloppy with your riding skills. Riding smaller bikes quickly forces us to use better skills, to learn how to maintain momentum. I'm actually shopping for a rolling chassis that I can slide my YZ400F motor into, or I'm going to buy 175 to 250cc single/twin and cafe it out so that I have something to practice the very skills that I'm talking about.

More is not always better. It's not who has the most power. It's who has the best power and, more importantly, who can use the power that they have the best.

So?

I've been under the impression that when you're on a 1000 you won't have as much fun in the twisties compared to a 600. After getting to know my 600 and having my ass handed to me by some asshats on 1000's, (cough cough baystr/golfer cough cough) I'm second guessing that logic. They were every bit as fast as I was in the twisties and obviously faster everywhere else...

So as long as you respect the power/torque whats better? a 600 or 1000?

:ride:

[MA$TER_E]

What put you under that impression? Comparing a carving knife like a CBR600 to a cross country blaster like my 1100XX or an eyeabuser? No comparison, not even close (my XX is the better part of a foot longer for one thing, and isn't made for a full course of that for another).

But if you compare like for like, a CBR600 and a bike like Baystr or Mosser's CBR1000s (with a guy like Baystr or Mosser on it) the guy on the 600 ain't never gonna see the 1000 after the first couple turns.

One thing that I think will happen is that you'll get lax in your riding technique, because you'll have twice the motor to fall back on to bail you out. I know that for damn sure happened to me when I went from open class MX bikes back to a 125. It was like I forgot how to ride.


I've gotten that impression from people I ride with and dealers. And their logic makes sense; until you really start looking into it... I'm still a long ways away from getting a liter bike. I have much more to learn and would prefer doing so on my 600.

On that ride I went on though my bike had a hard time keeping up; but it did. I was comfortable and within my riding ability but once we were coming out of a corner I had to just beat the shit out of my poor bike just to keep up. Next corner I was right there in the pack, exit the corner, repeat flogging. I really enjoyed the ride I just didn't enjoy the way I had to do it.

And I do suppose it would be easy for someone to become dependent on the motor and let the skills slack. The last ride I went on with the motocorsa group up trout lake and down klickitat I was right on tail lights of a couple guys (Monster and 1098 I think) in the corners but couldn't pass them in the straights. Finally I had a mile of straight stretch and was able to squeeze by after they backed off and let me go. But again, I just don't like to beat on my bike so hard...

[Jane Honda]

Ok. I'm going to put my less than two cents worth in.



What happened to riding your own ride? Why must anyone try and keep up with anyone else? I love Baystr to bits, but I worry that it's just a matter of time for him the way he rides. He 'says' he's careful. But, carefullness won't stop an idiot from pulling out in front of you when your half a mile away going over 100 mph. That idiot will become a crash wall in a hurry. What about that deer ripping across the road?


Why does anyone need to go over 100 on the street? Even if I had a 600, or a 1000, I wouldn't go that fast. Whether I ride a 250 or a liter bike is a moot point, because I refuse to go that fast. Save it for the track. I'm not saying do the speed limit constantly, but there is a time and place for going faster, and 100 is my cut off point. Hell, my bike wont even go past 85. I was curious, and did it for the hell of it. We were out in the middle of no where, visibility to the front, and sides of me was awesome. Otherwise, I would have stretched my bikes legs a bit, and backed off; instead of going full throttle.

I like to concentrate on the corners. When I'm feeling up to it, thats where I like to push myself. I don't have to tell E how good that bike does in the corners. It can remain competitive if all we were riding is corners, and I'm on my game. Once a straight comes, it's bye bye 250. Everyone leaves us. And, I'm ok with that...

[MA$TER_E]

The better bike is an air-cooled, two-valve per cylinder, 1078cc L-twin motor in a lightweight frame with Ohlins suspenders and ultra-light wheels:rad:

That motor can be massaged to make as much torque as an inline 1000cc four, and plenty of horsepower for on the street.

I've yet to find a bike that I can't run with up to about 130mph, and who wants to go that fast on the street? I mean, I'd never do something like that...:yes:

A lightweight bike with adequate horsepower and great handling and braking in the hands of a talented rider will show the vast majority of people riding 1000s the fast way through the twisties every time.

I think it's far more fun to be on the underdog bike that's the first one to the rest stop, than it is to be the person on the overdog bike. If the overdog bike makes it to the rest stop first, people tend to credit the achievement to the fact that the bike is so powerful/awesome handling, and so on, rather than crediting the rider's talents. On the other hand, the guy on the underdog bike that gets to the rest stop first gets far more recognition for his/her skills because people know that it didn't happen because the bike had the most power, etc.

Rather than spending more money on a liter bike, invest in you. Get some time on a track with a great coach. Your 600 is plenty fast. Like Jon said, going to bikes with gobs of power can cause you to get sloppy with your riding skills. Riding smaller bikes quickly forces us to use better skills, to learn how to maintain momentum. I'm actually shopping for a rolling chassis that I can slide my YZ400F motor into, or I'm going to buy 175 to 250cc single/twin and cafe it out so that I have something to practice the very skills that I'm talking about.

More is not always better. It's not who has the most power. It's who has the best power and, more importantly, who can use the power that they have the best.


I'm seriously considering doing some track days next year. Maybe three or four of them. I was afraid to do it this year. First year on the bike, getting used to the type of riding, making payments on the bike... A lot of things were holding me back. The last thing I need to be worrying about mid corner out on a track is what if I wad it up? My insurance wont cover it... Then backing off the throttle or grabbing the brake...

I've got a long ways to go on the 600 yet and I'm sure I'll dump a ridiculous amount of money into it. Lighter rims, titanium exhaust systems and power goodies... But why not put that money on a stock 1000 instead?

:ride:

[KnightReiteR]

Except Baystr, Mosser, and the rest of the Salem "hooligans" are slow regardless which bike they are on. Bahahaha!

[MA$TER_E]

Except Baystr, Mosser, and the rest of the Salem "hooligans" are slow regardless which bike they are on. Bahahaha!

:haha:


It's important to note here that I'm not trying to justify a liter for the sake of keeping up with others. I'm riding my own pace at my own ability and comparing it to the ones around me. Coincidentally, the ones around me seam to be on liters... The BS I've been fed about liters not being as much fun in the twisties is circling the drain the more and more I look into it... Thats the point...

Lets say there's an awesome 25mph sweeper that goes on forever and ever. 600 or 1000 neither one is going to be faster in the corner than the other.

[DrDuc]

...But why not put that money on a stock 1000 instead?

:ride:

Because no matter what you buy, it's not going to stay stock and you know it. We all addicts. No matter what we have, we get used to it and end up wanting more, not that that is a bad thing, it's just what we do:naughty:

[Jane Honda]

:haha:


It's important to note here that I'm not trying to justify a liter for the sake of keeping up with others. I'm riding my own pace at my own ability and comparing it to the ones around me. Coincidentally, the ones around me seam to be on liters... The BS I've been fed about liters not being as much fun in the twisties is circling the drain the more and more I look into it... Thats the point...

Lets say there's an awesome 25mph sweeper that goes on forever and ever. 600 or 1000 neither one is going to be faster in the corner than the other.


The thing I have heard the most is the beyond liter bikes are the slugs in the corners. Example a Busa isn't going to corner as well as a 600. That is all heresy in what people have told me. My bike is a bit lighter, lower, and on narrower tires than a 600, so the cornering ability is more catlike. Now, if I had stickier tires, I may be more comfortable in pushing it a bit more...


But, my dear Ma$ter, I think you could make a vespa faster than hell if you rode it. Your a fast, and excellent rider. :thumbup:

[MA$TER_E]

Because no matter what you buy, it's not going to stay stock and you know it. We all addicts. No matter what we have, we get used to it and end up wanting more, not that that is a bad thing, it's just what we do:naughty:

:rolleyes: Damn... You're so right doc... We're so predictable :yes: :ride:


The thing I have heard the most is the beyond liter bikes are the slugs in the corners. Example a Busa isn't going to corner as well as a 600. That is all heresy in what people have told me. My bike is a bit lighter, lower, and on narrower tires than a 600, so the cornering ability is more catlike. Now, if I had stickier tires, I may be more comfortable in pushing it a bit more...


But, my dear Ma$ter, I think you could make a vespa faster than hell if you rode it. Your a fast, and excellent rider. :thumbup:
:wub:

I guess the more I look into it and to Dale's point its all about the monies... 600 or 1000 its still a bottomless money pit...

[TOM-CAT]

The thing I have heard the most is the beyond liter bikes are the slugs in the corners. Example a Busa isn't going to corner as well as a 600...

Again, under track conditions this is true, however, on the street the differences are negligible. Come down to Eugene and ride with 'Busa'-Lee. He will change anyone's preconceived notions of what a Busa can and cannot do. I'll drag knee on my R6 all day, following Lee through the twisties. And if Lee had knee sliders, he would be draggin knee too. :rolleyes:

[MA$TER_E]

I can testify to that. When I went down to Salem for the Wednesday night gathering this guy was rock'in a ZX-14 and I figured he was going to get left behind in the corners. On the contrary, he was quite fast.

I think it comes down to riding style and your abilities.

[r6jon]

I think it's far more fun to be on the underdog bike that's the first one to the rest stop, than it is to be the person on the overdog bike. If the overdog bike makes it to the rest stop first, people tend to credit the achievement to the fact that the bike is so powerful/awesome handling, and so on, rather than crediting the rider's talents. On the other hand, the guy on the underdog bike that gets to the rest stop first gets far more recognition for his/her skills because people know that it didn't happen because the bike had the most power, etc.


Very well said Dale, that's my #1 reason why I've been riding a 600cc bike the last 7 years as my primary ride. I live by those words. :thumbup:

[JonXX]

Except Baystr, Mosser, and the rest of the Salem "hooligans" are slow regardless which bike they are on. Bahahaha!

Right. That's why I have three track records. Because I'm slow.

[TOM-CAT]

...I have three track records...

Road course or drag strip?

[KnightReiteR]

Pffffft. Who are you trying to impress? Bahaha

[KnightReiteR]

Jon your profile pic looks like you should be on Sprockets with german host Dieter.

"Touch my monkey!"

[Flyte Risk]

Right. That's why I have three track records. Because I'm slow.

All I'm saying is I've ridden with Jon.

[MA$TER_E]

Me too

[JonXX]

Road course or drag strip?

drag strip :haha:

yes I'm comparing apples and cumquats :lol:

All I'm saying is I've ridden with Jon.

Me too

And you both smoke me in the corners :lol:

[speedracer42]

This whole debate will change from one group of riders to the next. Speed is totally and completely relative. A "fast" rider to you might be average to me. Or vice versa. When I road 600's I could keep up with any of my friends in the twisties just fine. And this was some VERY fast street riders. BUT I had to rape the 600 to do so. For most of us mere mortals the difference in ability to turn one vs the other on the street is negligable. But the 1k can be ridden hard without as much work on the motor. And that is appealing to me. Because frankly I dont want to have to do the majority of a street ride at over 10k rpm's to keep up with the group.

[Jane Honda]

Good point. :thumbup:



I have to be honest. Liter bikes scare the stuffins out of me. I was smeared down I-5 because of one. Although, I know it wasn't the bikes fault, and it was a freak accident due to rider error. I also don't blame the pilot either. They just scare me.


Irrational.

[speedracer42]

Good point. :thumbup:



I have to be honest. Liter bikes scare the stuffins out of me. I was smeared down I-5 because of one. Although, I know it wasn't the bikes fault, and it was a freak accident due to rider error. I also don't blame the pilot either. They just scare me.


Irrational.


Its not irrational. A litre can be a weapon. Truthfully on the street with a relaxed mindset and a smooth throttle hand they are like a Vespa. But if you don't respect it you will get bitten that much quicker. Last Monday I rode a 600 and a 1000 back to back at PIR (both race bikes) and was reminded just how dramatic the difference is, when ridden hard.

[MA$TER_E]

This whole debate will change from one group of riders to the next. Speed is totally and completely relative. A "fast" rider to you might be average to me. Or vice versa. When I road 600's I could keep up with any of my friends in the twisties just fine. And this was some VERY fast street riders. BUT I had to rape the 600 to do so. For most of us mere mortals the difference in ability to turn one vs the other on the street is negligable. But the 1k can be ridden hard without as much work on the motor. And that is appealing to me. Because frankly I dont want to have to do the majority of a street ride at over 10k rpm's to keep up with the group.

Its not irrational. A litre can be a weapon. Truthfully on the street with a relaxed mindset and a smooth throttle hand they are like a Vespa. But if you don't respect it you will get bitten that much quicker. Last Monday I rode a 600 and a 1000 back to back at PIR (both race bikes) and was reminded just how dramatic the difference is, when ridden hard.

Thats what I've been discovering. Its not that 600's aren't fast; you just have to beat the hell out of them. Where as 1000's have that extra punch and you don't have to beat on them as hard to go just as fast. And again "fast" is all relative.

+1 a liter can be a weapon. And I'd agree completely, it takes control and a lot of respect to ride a 1000. Thus, I ride a 600 :yes: it has more than enough to get me into trouble :ride:

[Flyte Risk]

Although, I know it wasn't the bikes fault, and it was a freak accident due to rider error.

Care to explain why the same "freak accident due to rider error" happened to me 2 years later? On a 600?

Truth is that both bikes are far more capable then most owners of them can handle. The 600's are just alot more forgiving of stupid mistakes or the not so occcasional "off day". I'd venture to say that if you take your average street rider and put them on both bikes in back to back fashion, they would be faster on the 600 from the T1 braking area to the T9 exit @ PIR. If only for the sole reason that the bike isn't as intimidating.

BTW, for some of us we like that we have to work both the bike and ourselves to keep pace.

[TOM-CAT]

..BTW, for some of us we like that we have to work both the bike and ourselves to keep pace.

+1. Well put. :thumbup:

[DrDuc]

I recently test-rode an 1198s that had about $10K worth of upgrades on it including the full Termi exhaust and Ducati Performance ECU. It was a crystal clear day. The roads were nice and dry. No traffic. Even with the traction control set at 6 (out of a maximum of 8, with the higher the number the greater the electronic control), I still had to manage power wheelies any time I got on the throttle with any kind of urgency.

I scared myself pretty good when I gassed it up hard coming out of a corner leading into a short straight then into a hard right hand turn. First, the front wheel comes up. The next thing I know, I'm headed for the corner at a pace that's much hotter than I wanted. Roll off the throttle and apply pressure to the front brake with one finger and how I'm wagging the back wheel in the air. Frontline open class bikes can get you into trouble in the blink of an eye. At least on a 600, you have a couple of seconds to reconsider the wisdom of your choices. On the frontline open class bike, you have about the time it takes to blink your eye. Think about it long and hard before you buy one.

I rode that bike just before we took that ride up to Klickatat. I was thinking about selling my Paul Smart and buying. Then I had a chance to ride with a 999 and a 1098 and I was able to run right along side them in sprints well past the ton, and I could carry better corner speeds, and I could have passed them if money or points were on the line rather than friendship and safety being more important.

I took my NT 650 out for its first ride of more than a few miles yesterday. It was like learning to ride all over again, as it's been a long time since I rode a bike with suspension that isn' t tuned for me, or with 20-year-old brakes, but man, it was fun to be able to twist that throttle with abandon and focus on carrying speed through the corners. I love hearing motors working hard to carry speed. I've said it in different ways before, but I'd rather feel like a hero stretching the throttle cable, than feel like a chicken because I only have the nerve to use the first quarter of the throttle.

If you think you really want a 1000, let's hook up and I'll let you ride one of mine first. If you really think you need more than they have to offer, at least wait until you're dragging hard parts on the 600 in corners and you're completely confident that you can milk every ounce of performance out of it before you make the jump to the 1000.

I wish I could remember who it was, but one of the old-school multi-time world champions once said that none of us needs more than a 250cc, beyond that, it's all about ego.

[MA$TER_E]

Oh I'm not going to buy one. I'm not mature enough to have the respect needed to keep a 1000 rubber side down. I'd exploit it's power and get into trouble like you said, in a blink of an eye... It's something that went through my mind when I was at the shop and was eyeing the zx6 and zx10. There are some really cool gizmos on the 10 and was just looking. The sales guy did the usuall sales guy number and we started to BS. He said that if I am a corner whore then the 600 would be better. When I asked him why is that it was very clear he didn't know dick about bikes... The 1000 felt every bit as light as the 600 and I couldnt figure it out. Why do people say 600's are more fun than 1000's in the corners? It confused me...

[Flyte Risk]

Then the answer to that is simple. On the 600 you can refocus your concentration from not killing yourself to enjoying the experience.

It's just like a slipper clutch. It frees you up from one more thing to worry about. Eventually you have free'd up enough of your mind that you have enough excess to do other things with. As that excess keeps increasing you become relaxed and "along for the ride" , so to speak.

[Nicegy525]

ok yeah I may be biased but I for one feel the 750 line-up is a perfect combo of both worlds.

A nicely set up 750, with some minor gearing changes, slip-on and good fuel mapping can come pretty close to the stock hp of a Litre bike, with handling closer to the 600's

Sadly I had to sell my aftermarket stuff and put her back to stock, but with the few mods I did to the 750, she was an absolute hoot to ride! Even back to stock she's still fun, just lacks a little mid range grunt now.

[YAMR6]

Yeah, I road that bike with some of the mods on and I have to say...yeah it sucks balls. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! No, really! Okay, maybe not...okay....naaahh.

[speedracer42]

Oh I'm not going to buy one. I'm not mature enough to have the respect needed to keep a 1000 rubber side down. I'd exploit it's power and get into trouble like you said, in a blink of an eye... It's something that went through my mind when I was at the shop and was eyeing the zx6 and zx10. There are some really cool gizmos on the 10 and was just looking. The sales guy did the usuall sales guy number and we started to BS. He said that if I am a corner whore then the 600 would be better. When I asked him why is that it was very clear he didn't know dick about bikes... The 1000 felt every bit as light as the 600 and I couldnt figure it out. Why do people say 600's are more fun than 1000's in the corners? It confused me...

When it comes to turning it is not the overall weight of the bike that makes the biggest difference. Is where the weight it located. And in the case of a litre it is swinging a much heavier crank, rods, and pistons. And while spinning at a high rpm that force makes the bike want to continue in a straight line. So when going (fast) it becomes much more difficult to turn in and maintain that line. Now factor in 40-50 more hp minimum and then you can understand why it is much more of a handful corner exit.

[MA$TER_E]

When it comes to turning it is not the overall weight of the bike that makes the biggest difference. Is where the weight it located. And in the case of a litre it is swinging a much heavier crank, rods, and pistons. And while spinning at a high rpm that force makes the bike want to continue in a straight line. So when going (fast) it becomes much more difficult to turn in and maintain that line. Now factor in 40-50 more hp minimum and then you can understand why it is much more of a handful corner exit.


Ding! Ding! Ding! I think you nailed it :thumbup: Centrifugal inertia would explain everything. Heavier spinning masses would increase gyroscopic effect thus making it harder to change the bikes direction. Even though the bike feals lighter there's more spinning mass...

Interesting; good point speedy...

[mfrankpdx]

Personally I think riding a liter bike is much more fun than a 600. Every time I went on a spirited ride on my R6, I felt like I was beating the crap out of it. The engine constantly screaming and shifting, in retrospect, was probably more of a distraction than anything. On the liter bike, I just plop it in 3rd and enjoy the ride.

Does it make me complacent and lazy? Sure, when it comes to operating the bike. But on the street, you should use as few mental resources to operate the controls anyway. That way you can focus the majority of your attention to the road and it's hazards. If you want to learn to push the bike, it doesn't matter if it's a 600 or 1000, take it to the track.

I'm seriously considering doing some track days next year. Maybe three or four of them. I was afraid to do it this year. First year on the bike, getting used to the type of riding, making payments on the bike... A lot of things were holding me back. The last thing I need to be worrying about mid corner out on a track is what if I wad it up? My insurance wont cover it... Then backing off the throttle or grabbing the brake...:ride:

Although understandable, fears about the track are usually irrational or unjustified. Simply put, you don't know how much you don't know. The tack is a completely different animal, and if you're worried about wadding it up on the corner, you're worrying for nothing. If you want to worry, worry about riding on the street. The track is a ridiculously safe environment to push your skills. Ask yourself this; What are the odds you can ride at 9/10ths in 10 miles of twisties on the street and not have an incident? Not very good. At the track your odds greatly improve.

When it comes to turning it is not the overall weight of the bike that makes the biggest difference. Is where the weight it located. And in the case of a litre it is swinging a much heavier crank, rods, and pistons. And while spinning at a high rpm that force makes the bike want to continue in a straight line. So when going (fast) it becomes much more difficult to turn in and maintain that line. Now factor in 40-50 more hp minimum and then you can understand why it is much more of a handful corner exit.

It actually makes it easier to maintain a cornering line. Gyroscopic forces make changing the axis of rotating objects difficult to change. The means, once the bike is leaned over, it wants to stay leaned over. So the advantage of liter bikes in the corner is if you begin braking mid corner, the bike doesn't have the same tendency to stand up as a 600.

On the street, I haven't noticed any difference in "flickability" between the R1 and R6. I believe this is the result of riding the R1 at a much lower engine speed. As rotation speed increases, so do gyroscopic forces. So an R6 at 13k rpms isn't any easier to flick than an R1 at 6k rpms.

[speedracer42]

It actually makes it easier to maintain a cornering line. Gyroscopic forces make changing the axis of rotating objects difficult to change. The means, once the bike is leaned over, it wants to stay leaned over. So the advantage of liter bikes in the corner is if you begin braking mid corner, the bike doesn't have the same tendency to stand up as a 600.



Im not an engineer, and Ive never read a single book on riding. But I can't agree with this part of your post without some proof. From a seat of the pants feel, and being a reasonably fast guy with lots of laps on both a 600 and 1000 Ive NEVER felt what you are describing. A bike does NOT want to stay leaned over once leaned over. If that was true you wouldn't see racers nearly dragging their helmets. It wouldn't be necessary. And braking mid corner and the bike standing up or not can be corrected with geometry changes. Ive rarely ridden a stock bike in my life. But I can brake surprisingly hard with the only worry being overcoming traction and tucking the front on both a 600 and 1000.0

[MA$TER_E]

Personally I think riding a liter bike is much more fun than a 600. Every time I went on a spirited ride on my R6, I felt like I was beating the crap out of it. The engine constantly screaming and shifting, in retrospect, was probably more of a distraction than anything. On the liter bike, I just plop it in 3rd and enjoy the ride.

I'd agree with that. I don't like beating on my bike that hard. Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good flogging once in a while :naughty: but only for a little while. Watching for the shift light and shifting before the limiter kicks in is a pretty big distraction...


Although understandable, fears about the track are usually irrational or unjustified. Simply put, you don't know how much you don't know. The tack is a completely different animal, and if you're worried about wadding it up on the corner, you're worrying for nothing. If you want to worry, worry about riding on the street. The track is a ridiculously safe environment to push your skills. Ask yourself this; What are the odds you can ride at 9/10ths in 10 miles of twisties on the street and not have an incident? Not very good. At the track your odds greatly improve.

I know the track is safer. Thats why I would like to go next year, what it comes down to though is money. When you don't have a whole lot of it you tend to think about it more. Playing at a track is expensive. Fuel, tires, parts if you need them, getting there, etc... Thats all fine and I could probably swing that a few times a year. But wad my $10,000 bike up; I still have to make the payments and all those track days I bought are no good without a bike. Which brings me full circle to, Money, if you don't have a whole lot of it you tend to think about it more. I don't want to have to worry about it while I'm out on the track.

[mfrankpdx]

Im not an engineer, and Ive never read a single book on riding. But I can't agree with this part of your post without some proof. From a seat of the pants feel, and being a reasonably fast guy with lots of laps on both a 600 and 1000 Ive NEVER felt what you are describing. A bike does NOT want to stay leaned over once leaned over. If that was true you wouldn't see racers nearly dragging their helmets. It wouldn't be necessary. And braking mid corner and the bike standing up or not can be corrected with geometry changes. Ive rarely ridden a stock bike in my life. But I can brake surprisingly hard with the only worry being overcoming traction and tucking the front on both a 600 and 1000.0

When something rotates, it takes force to change it's axis of rotation. The faster it rotates, the more force it takes. Physics tells us that if a bike's rotating parts are at a 60 degree angle (when a bike is leaned), it will require force to change that angle. Gravity is one of those forces. However, centrifugal force counteracts gravity when a motorcycle is turning. Gravity pulls the bike down towards the inside of the corner, centrifugal force pulls it up to the outside. Given those factors, a liter bike, because of it has more rotating mass, is more "stuck" in it's position, no matter what that position is. It will always require more force to lean or stand up than a 600. This has an exaggerated and more recognizable feel if you ride a 250, which you can "flip" from left to right with very little effort.

Basically, a liter bike is more stable when leaned over, just as it is more stable when upright going in a strait line. It's the pure physics of it. Your seat of the pants feeling may be completely different, and I'd suggest that it differs from bike to bike, and rider to rider. I am not arguing that you don't feel what you feel. But what physics tell us is that more rotating mass = more "stuck" at whatever angle the rotating mass is at.

[YAMR6]

Eric, I think you should forget the whole thing and buy inline skates.

[Nicegy525]

Eric, One option to help lessen track day costs is to go volunteer as a flagger for a track day organization. PSSR is highly recommend for a first track day experience. and if you volunteer to work 2 days you can get one free day through them.

Their C group instruction is among the best in the region with a very low student:instructor ratio resulting in a very structured environment with lots of instruction available for those who want or need it.

you dont need race tires to run a track day. A good aggressive street tire can handle most speeds at the track until you get faster and actually need a track tire. Otherwise you can find a good set of track take-offs for $100 a set, get 1-2 track days out of them and about 1500 street miles. Ive done track days on Standard Pilot Powers and Pilot power 2ct's and both held up very well.

[MA$TER_E]

Eric, I think you should forget the whole thing and buy inline skates.

First of all I AM NOT BUYING A LITER BIKE!


yet :yes:

And inline skates are for suckaz; wheelie boards are the shiz nit yo :haha:


Eric, One option to help lessen track day costs is to go volunteer as a flagger for a track day organization. PSSR is highly recommend for a first track day experience. and if you volunteer to work 2 days you can get one free day through them.

Their C group instruction is among the best in the region with a very low student:instructor ratio resulting in a very structured environment with lots of instruction available for those who want or need it.

you dont need race tires to run a track day. A good aggressive street tire can handle most speeds at the track until you get faster and actually need a track tire. Otherwise you can find a good set of track take-offs for $100 a set, get 1-2 track days out of them and about 1500 street miles. Ive done track days on Standard Pilot Powers and Pilot power 2ct's and both held up very well.

Maybe I'll do that. I had a good time doing corner work and you're right there on the track! which was awesome :rad:

Like I said I'm planning for a few days next year, we'll see what happens through the winter...

[DrDuc]

why not pick up a cheap used bike to take to the track? You can find some absolute steals on bikes that ended up with a salvage title after a very minor mishap.

[MarineHawk]

Watch out though, they get stolen :P

[MA$TER_E]

why not pick up a cheap used bike to take to the track? You can find some absolute steals on bikes that ended up with a salvage title after a very minor mishap.

I've been thinking about that very thing. Something thats been dropped or lowsided and has some cosmetic issues.

Check this out. 07 GSXR 600 for only 4k. The plastic is phucked and what plastic is there, with very little effort would work just fine for track use. Even if all the plastic needs to be replaced you can get a full set of new race plastic for $650. I'm sure I could get an even better deal than 4k once winter sets in and people get into debt for Xmas.


07 GSXR 600 - $3999 (Hillsboro)


needs right and left plastics,excellent deal !!!



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[MarinesBiatch]

Watch out though, they get stolen :P

:squintfinger

[Nicegy525]

if youre lookin to buy a wrecked bike, talk to someone with a car dealers license and see if they would be willing to buy one from the Eugene auto auction. They get lots of bikes down there, some wrecked some repos etc. Wont find a cheaper price anywhere, but you need a dealer's license to register on the site and buy stuff.

[MA$TER_E]

if youre lookin to buy a wrecked bike, talk to someone with a car dealers license and see if they would be willing to buy one from the Eugene auto auction. They get lots of bikes down there, some wrecked some repos etc. Wont find a cheaper price anywhere, but you need a dealer's license to register on the site and buy stuff.


Thanks for the info :thumbup: I'll have to do that when I've got the cash and get serious about it.

Anyone here have a dealers license?

[YAMR6]

Thanks for the info :thumbup: I'll have to do that when I've got the cash and get serious about it.

Anyone here have a dealer?

You need some smoke man?:crackhead Maybe some uppers :coffee:or some downers? :drunk

[MA$TER_E]

Whatever the kids are smoking now-a-days :rolleyes: